I’m a little disappointed that you are both are onboard with dissing Dave Chappelle because of his alleged transphobia. Are we so politically correct nowadays that “marginalized communities” can no longer be fodder for jokes and comedy?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but, for me, it’s about intentionality. What place does it come from? The sense I get from it, is an ugly place. Certainly comedy comes from all kinds of angles and POVs and can be politically incorrect or irreverent, I just find it hateful and therefore unfunny (particularly given the dangerous climate in USA with trans rights, suicide and murders). I used to find him so funny and satirically meaningful so it’s (personally) been a disappointment to watch that evolution toward the edgelording for edgelordings sake. I don’t begrudge anyone who wants to consume his stuff or not. But it’s sad (to me) that is what’s most valuable to the comedy execs. Comedy can be so subjective. That’s how it lands to me, though, and I know it can feel disappointing to hear how it makes other’s feel, especially if you’re a fan of someone’s work. I do see it’s complicated since he’s an undeniably skilled standup who’s gone on this evolution. And, I also think he is wanting this outcome anyway, so it is working. He gets defended while others “clutch pearls” and it keeps his Q rating/ fee high so I guess he can’t lose, anyway!
May I ask why you put the term marginalized communities in quotes? Is it okay to make material about a specific group the target of your comedy because in your opinion they are not truly oppressed?
His pain is real, all other pain is being "too sensitive?" He repeatedly says trans people are making it up, misgenders them, clings to the "friendship" he had with one now-deceased trans person? Is it still just jokes or does he have an axe to grind?
People are not "too sensitive" now; people that didn't have voices before are now making their voices heard. If you want to know why the LGBTQIA+ community is so "hateful" to this one comedian, i would say the onus is on you to find out from them. The information is out there.
Forgive the long reply but the idea that "you can't make jokes about anything anymore" is absolutely false. The problem isn't that "people are too sensitive," the problem is that people aren't sensitive enough to other people. You can joke about ANYTHING-- literally, no subject if off limits-- but when you do, maybe have a point to make. Dave's standup has become increasingly cheap and uninspired.
Thanks for commenting, Janie. I don’t believe Dave Chappelle “hates” anyone. I’ve listened to almost every joke or comment he’s made about transgender people or the trans community and I don’t recall him ever saying anything I felt was designed to incite hate or violence. If anything, I’ve heard a lot of hateful comments directed at Chappelle by members of the trans and LGBTQ community. I’d be curious if you could provide some specific examples of jokes or comments Chappelle has made that you feel were designed to incite hate or violence. One of the striking comments, to my mind, that he has made regarding this controversy is that “In our country, You can shoot or kill a n*****, but you better not hurt a gay person’s feelings.” He often talks about how America has such a “brittle spirit.” I think many people are guilty of being way too sensitive when it comes to what is allowed to be joked about or made fun of.
I always enjoy listening to you and Paul on your monthly podcast and I think you guys provide a lot of material that’s thought provoking (and hilarious). I’ve always felt the same way about Dave Chappelle.
Team TERF stuff is what I don’t think needs to be a punchline to make the points. It’s laced with certain attitudes that land punchy downy (to me. clearly not to others, like you or others who like it). I can’t stress enough that it’s my feelings about it that don’t need to be other’s feelings about it - as long as they can tolerate my feelings and disappointment and right to speak my opinion on how it lands. At some point it becomes circular! Are we who think it’s beneath him too sensitive or is HE too sensitive to constantly defend it? ARE WE ALL TOO SENSITIVE? Or not sensitive enough? I don’t know! I just know what I like and laugh at and don’t! It’s just SO cringe (to me). 😬
I put “marginalized communities” in quotes to indicate that I was quoting you and Janie, since this is what you said on the podcast. You stated that Chappelle was making fun of “a marginalized group of people.” The article you sent me about Daphne Dorman fails to mention that one of the reasons she is believed to have committed suicide was because she was “dragged” on twitter by members of the trans community for daring to defend Dave Chappelle. Trans people are indeed at great risk of violence and hate in this messed up world, but I don’t believe Chappelle’s jokes encourage or contribute to it, anymore than I believe his jokes about blacks and whites encourage or contribute to hate and violence toward these communities. If anything, I think they diffuse hatred since they make a joke about the human condition. How are his jokes about trans people any more dangerous than those he makes about blacks, whites, women, and himself? The fact that Dorman was vilified and attacked by her own “tribe” for defending Chappelle is sad and shameful. That’s not Chappelle’s fault.
You say the onus is on me to find out why the LGBTQIA+ communities is so hateful to Chappelle, implying that I haven't bothered to look into this. I've read extensively about this controversy from all viewpoints. If Chappelle has an axe to grind, it's about the freedom of artistic expression. That's the "point" he has to make. You claim Chappelle "repeatedly says trans people are making it up." Really? Show me a special or public comment where he has made this claim. What exactly is he accusing them of making up? Their pain? I think he's gone out of his way to say that he respects and empathizes with the trans community.
No need to apologize for the long reply. I am enjoying the discussion and genuinely trying to understand why I am wrong about this.
1) He is saying trans people are making up… the concept of being trans.
2) if we’d like to lay the blame of Dorman’s death (whom Chappelle misgenders several times in the special he mentions her in) solely at the feet of the trans community, can we not also say that Chappelle’s jokes absolutely contribute to the hatred and othering and dismissal of trans people and their feelings? He’s playing to huge cheering crowds. No effect? No contribution?
3) If you have examined all the viewpoints on this matter and conclude that people are being too sensitive and that what Chappelle is doing in just last few specials constitutes “artistic expression” rather than the tired jokes of a man who feels he is above recrimination then I truly don’t think we have much left to talk about
By the way, it is NOT my opinion that the trans community is not truly oppressed. I am well aware of how the trans community is under assault from all manner of governmental and societal forces. I just don't believe Chappelle is one of them.
Most people are doing the best they can to make sense of the cultural moment we’re left with after a lot of (shall we say) shifts! Including you and PFT.
Thanks for the comment, Janie. There sure is a lot to try and make sense of nowadays. I'm not very active on social media, so it's nice to be able to exchange ideas and opinions on your forum, especially since I respect you and Paul so much. Here's wishing you both a very Happy St. Patrick's Day in advance. May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live!
Hey Paul, I know you've said in past episodes of the podcast that you're not a fan of Bill Maher, but I'd be curious to hear what you think about this recent commentary of his.
Janie, thank you so much for sharing this. I’ve told you before that I’m a social worker in an elementary school. You must have so many people on here you talk with though, so I don’t expect you to remember details. The school I work in is public, title one, in a rural town 20 minutes outside of Austin, Texas. In other words, just your typical life in America. I have a caseload of 85 to 90 children and their families. I love my job. Every day I move like a shark. I don’t stop until I get home, and then I need to do my thing. Sometimes I don’t sleep. I’ll try to make this not be a long comment.
There is so much heart and beauty in this world, and in these families. But we are falling apart. I don’t know what the next year is going to bring. My partner and I are in the midst of purchasing a duplex in southeast Austin. We both have college degrees and no children that we support financially. But we both worry of how we are going to stop going paycheck to paycheck. I am a rock to 85 to 90 children at school and their families at home. Sometimes I cry a lot.
Just one example of the climate inside the school: we are told to keep our doors shut and locked at all times, and the children are never never supposed to open the door on their own. This is because of gun violence. We have to protect these children. I’m disabled I walk slowly with a leg brace but, truthfully, I will get up and down from my desk and walk across the room infinity times a day to stop what I read and see happening again, but in my heart, I know that a locked door won’t stop it.
There are so many good people in this world. “Look for the helpers“ is what Mr. Rogers always said. I am one of them, but our society values different things other than support, love, community and education, because I’m struggling, as are all the teachers I know.
I need to stop talking /writing. My hope is that with technology and the internet we can all find each other and fix this mess.
I apologize for my very long, very serious comment. We tend to keep it lighthearted around here, and I do appreciate that. My heart is in it all so much, and I feel passionately about wanting our world to be better.
Hello!! I’ve been thinking about my impassioned plea for support, support for the majority of us regular Americans. My feelings are whoever is reading this is an inherently kind, thoughtful, considerate, empathetic person, because you are drawn to Paul and Janie, same as me. Unless you ARE Paul and Janie, in which case Hey Paul! Yes, I’m a piss pig from way back. Oink oink motherfucka’. And Janie, I love you, you are the best, and together you two combined embody ——- okay I’ll stop. Haha too much gushing.
ANYWAY haha, what I actually came here to say is, could whoever is interested in engaging more than in comments, here in this community, can we use the message function in this app for that? I’ve tried before, but I couldn’t start my own post, just comment on others’. Which was great! Many of us connected about the holidays. Janie, you started the post right? So it might need to be the account holder.
I’d love to continue conversations with you all. Y’all seem like great folks! 🩵
Hi Stephen. My name is Windy. I have a lot to say in the first minute of what Bill Maher has said so far. I’m going to do the whole thing before I share my thoughts (because you must be dying to hear the thoughts of a person you just learned existed 🤗). BRB
Stephen, I don’t know if you want to hear this, but since you’re on Janie and Paul’s comment page you get full benefit of the doubt (also, aren’t you Paul’s brother? Cousin?).
That was difficult for me to stomach. He was going back and forth between two opposing extremes with that, the whole thing, and playing up the punchy words for laughs, just like the “trends” he so readily dismisses. There are nuances. He’s ignoring all nuance, which encourages and enables others to do the same.
There have always, always, always been people who don’t fit inside checkboxes. Tomboys. Effeminate men. etc. those are two terms I heard a lot growing up in my east Texas small town growing up, and I was born in 1980. But I’m talking Ancient Greece and Rome, when people embodied the spirit of one gender and presented as another were considered close to godlike. Nuance. Things aren’t moving too fast. Some people cling hard to simplicity because anything beyond that terrifies them, and that fear comes out as hate. And people lack community anymore so they will cling to whatever form of it they can find, even if it’s harmful and hurtful to everyone. This is “othering”.
Some of what I say is my opinion, it should be said. I’m a social worker in an elementary school, so I think about these things a lot. I appreciate the respectful back-and-forth here and I thank you in advance for letting me contribute.
Paul does his best NostraTompkins when he says “Extra, Extra, Oppenheimer sweeps Oscars!” Speaking of the Oscars, my nomination for “Extemporaneous Comment of the Year” goes out to Jimmy Kimmel for saying “Isn’t it past your jail time?” Priceless!
That was indeed very funny! Stephen, I hope you didn’t take what I said about not enjoying the Bill Maher clip personally. I don’t know much about him, only that he did a show called Politically Incorrect when I was in my early twenties. I think it’s great that you’re asking questions! There are incurious people of all ages, and my feeling is that is one of the most unattractive qualities in a person, no desire to learn or grow.
I was SO excited for this episode when I saw the episode title. I got sucked in to ReesaTeesa’s series pretty early on, before all the parts were even uploaded (the suspense killed me!!). I’ve been begging my partner and my mom to watch all of it so we can gossip about it but once they heard how long it was they checked out 😭 So it’s been super exciting to see how viral she’s gone and now to listen to you guys dive into it!! Janie I totally agree with your strategy pitch — book deal, limited series, podcast — give me ALL the ReeseTeesa content!
JANIE. I am so grateful to you for recommending the Reesa Teesa series, and suggesting listening to it like a podcast. I am absolutely fascinated with cults/scammers/scams, and I love you that this is a victim that stood up to tell her story on her terms. I'm in the middle of moving and it's been an absolute nightmare, so having her in my ears telling me this story really became a respite the last few days. Thank you!!
I’m a little disappointed that you are both are onboard with dissing Dave Chappelle because of his alleged transphobia. Are we so politically correct nowadays that “marginalized communities” can no longer be fodder for jokes and comedy?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but, for me, it’s about intentionality. What place does it come from? The sense I get from it, is an ugly place. Certainly comedy comes from all kinds of angles and POVs and can be politically incorrect or irreverent, I just find it hateful and therefore unfunny (particularly given the dangerous climate in USA with trans rights, suicide and murders). I used to find him so funny and satirically meaningful so it’s (personally) been a disappointment to watch that evolution toward the edgelording for edgelordings sake. I don’t begrudge anyone who wants to consume his stuff or not. But it’s sad (to me) that is what’s most valuable to the comedy execs. Comedy can be so subjective. That’s how it lands to me, though, and I know it can feel disappointing to hear how it makes other’s feel, especially if you’re a fan of someone’s work. I do see it’s complicated since he’s an undeniably skilled standup who’s gone on this evolution. And, I also think he is wanting this outcome anyway, so it is working. He gets defended while others “clutch pearls” and it keeps his Q rating/ fee high so I guess he can’t lose, anyway!
May I ask why you put the term marginalized communities in quotes? Is it okay to make material about a specific group the target of your comedy because in your opinion they are not truly oppressed?
This doesn't even get to the third and most recent special where he does material about trans people: https://www.vox.com/culture/22738500/dave-chappelle-the-closer-daphne-dorman-trans-controversy-comedy
Dave Chappelle loves to toss around the phrase "brittle spirit" as if he were the arbiter of strength, as if he alone can decide who has suffered and who has not, yet he walked away from his Comedy Central show: https://www.nickiswift.com/644098/the-real-reason-dave-chappelle-walked-away-from-chappelles-show/
His pain is real, all other pain is being "too sensitive?" He repeatedly says trans people are making it up, misgenders them, clings to the "friendship" he had with one now-deceased trans person? Is it still just jokes or does he have an axe to grind?
People are not "too sensitive" now; people that didn't have voices before are now making their voices heard. If you want to know why the LGBTQIA+ community is so "hateful" to this one comedian, i would say the onus is on you to find out from them. The information is out there.
Forgive the long reply but the idea that "you can't make jokes about anything anymore" is absolutely false. The problem isn't that "people are too sensitive," the problem is that people aren't sensitive enough to other people. You can joke about ANYTHING-- literally, no subject if off limits-- but when you do, maybe have a point to make. Dave's standup has become increasingly cheap and uninspired.
Thanks for commenting, Janie. I don’t believe Dave Chappelle “hates” anyone. I’ve listened to almost every joke or comment he’s made about transgender people or the trans community and I don’t recall him ever saying anything I felt was designed to incite hate or violence. If anything, I’ve heard a lot of hateful comments directed at Chappelle by members of the trans and LGBTQ community. I’d be curious if you could provide some specific examples of jokes or comments Chappelle has made that you feel were designed to incite hate or violence. One of the striking comments, to my mind, that he has made regarding this controversy is that “In our country, You can shoot or kill a n*****, but you better not hurt a gay person’s feelings.” He often talks about how America has such a “brittle spirit.” I think many people are guilty of being way too sensitive when it comes to what is allowed to be joked about or made fun of.
I always enjoy listening to you and Paul on your monthly podcast and I think you guys provide a lot of material that’s thought provoking (and hilarious). I’ve always felt the same way about Dave Chappelle.
Team TERF stuff is what I don’t think needs to be a punchline to make the points. It’s laced with certain attitudes that land punchy downy (to me. clearly not to others, like you or others who like it). I can’t stress enough that it’s my feelings about it that don’t need to be other’s feelings about it - as long as they can tolerate my feelings and disappointment and right to speak my opinion on how it lands. At some point it becomes circular! Are we who think it’s beneath him too sensitive or is HE too sensitive to constantly defend it? ARE WE ALL TOO SENSITIVE? Or not sensitive enough? I don’t know! I just know what I like and laugh at and don’t! It’s just SO cringe (to me). 😬
Traitors Australia is THE best one by far. I can only speak for season 1 so far. But I’m a Nigel Stan and yall will be too
But also be forewarned the ending will make you cry
I already cried at UK TRAITORS season one so I’m armed with tissues!
Did I miss a Truman Show watchalong at some point, or is that upcoming? I love that movie, definitely want to hear your commentary!
I put “marginalized communities” in quotes to indicate that I was quoting you and Janie, since this is what you said on the podcast. You stated that Chappelle was making fun of “a marginalized group of people.” The article you sent me about Daphne Dorman fails to mention that one of the reasons she is believed to have committed suicide was because she was “dragged” on twitter by members of the trans community for daring to defend Dave Chappelle. Trans people are indeed at great risk of violence and hate in this messed up world, but I don’t believe Chappelle’s jokes encourage or contribute to it, anymore than I believe his jokes about blacks and whites encourage or contribute to hate and violence toward these communities. If anything, I think they diffuse hatred since they make a joke about the human condition. How are his jokes about trans people any more dangerous than those he makes about blacks, whites, women, and himself? The fact that Dorman was vilified and attacked by her own “tribe” for defending Chappelle is sad and shameful. That’s not Chappelle’s fault.
You say the onus is on me to find out why the LGBTQIA+ communities is so hateful to Chappelle, implying that I haven't bothered to look into this. I've read extensively about this controversy from all viewpoints. If Chappelle has an axe to grind, it's about the freedom of artistic expression. That's the "point" he has to make. You claim Chappelle "repeatedly says trans people are making it up." Really? Show me a special or public comment where he has made this claim. What exactly is he accusing them of making up? Their pain? I think he's gone out of his way to say that he respects and empathizes with the trans community.
No need to apologize for the long reply. I am enjoying the discussion and genuinely trying to understand why I am wrong about this.
1) He is saying trans people are making up… the concept of being trans.
2) if we’d like to lay the blame of Dorman’s death (whom Chappelle misgenders several times in the special he mentions her in) solely at the feet of the trans community, can we not also say that Chappelle’s jokes absolutely contribute to the hatred and othering and dismissal of trans people and their feelings? He’s playing to huge cheering crowds. No effect? No contribution?
3) If you have examined all the viewpoints on this matter and conclude that people are being too sensitive and that what Chappelle is doing in just last few specials constitutes “artistic expression” rather than the tired jokes of a man who feels he is above recrimination then I truly don’t think we have much left to talk about
By the way, it is NOT my opinion that the trans community is not truly oppressed. I am well aware of how the trans community is under assault from all manner of governmental and societal forces. I just don't believe Chappelle is one of them.
Okay Paul. I appreciate your detailed responses and I'm still wrestling with this issue. Thanks for the conversation.
Most people are doing the best they can to make sense of the cultural moment we’re left with after a lot of (shall we say) shifts! Including you and PFT.
Thanks for the comment, Janie. There sure is a lot to try and make sense of nowadays. I'm not very active on social media, so it's nice to be able to exchange ideas and opinions on your forum, especially since I respect you and Paul so much. Here's wishing you both a very Happy St. Patrick's Day in advance. May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live!
Hey Paul, I know you've said in past episodes of the podcast that you're not a fan of Bill Maher, but I'd be curious to hear what you think about this recent commentary of his.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMBzfUj5zsg
What do you think of this woman’s commentary. “Literally choose anything else” rang so true to me https://www.threads.net/@beingliberal/post/C4XKWhXOIVm/?xmt=AQGzfbkty_fwwtxG1wXG_VNrf8fmA9nd9ykj-s3S_AyBAA
Janie, thank you so much for sharing this. I’ve told you before that I’m a social worker in an elementary school. You must have so many people on here you talk with though, so I don’t expect you to remember details. The school I work in is public, title one, in a rural town 20 minutes outside of Austin, Texas. In other words, just your typical life in America. I have a caseload of 85 to 90 children and their families. I love my job. Every day I move like a shark. I don’t stop until I get home, and then I need to do my thing. Sometimes I don’t sleep. I’ll try to make this not be a long comment.
There is so much heart and beauty in this world, and in these families. But we are falling apart. I don’t know what the next year is going to bring. My partner and I are in the midst of purchasing a duplex in southeast Austin. We both have college degrees and no children that we support financially. But we both worry of how we are going to stop going paycheck to paycheck. I am a rock to 85 to 90 children at school and their families at home. Sometimes I cry a lot.
Just one example of the climate inside the school: we are told to keep our doors shut and locked at all times, and the children are never never supposed to open the door on their own. This is because of gun violence. We have to protect these children. I’m disabled I walk slowly with a leg brace but, truthfully, I will get up and down from my desk and walk across the room infinity times a day to stop what I read and see happening again, but in my heart, I know that a locked door won’t stop it.
There are so many good people in this world. “Look for the helpers“ is what Mr. Rogers always said. I am one of them, but our society values different things other than support, love, community and education, because I’m struggling, as are all the teachers I know.
I need to stop talking /writing. My hope is that with technology and the internet we can all find each other and fix this mess.
I apologize for my very long, very serious comment. We tend to keep it lighthearted around here, and I do appreciate that. My heart is in it all so much, and I feel passionately about wanting our world to be better.
Hello!! I’ve been thinking about my impassioned plea for support, support for the majority of us regular Americans. My feelings are whoever is reading this is an inherently kind, thoughtful, considerate, empathetic person, because you are drawn to Paul and Janie, same as me. Unless you ARE Paul and Janie, in which case Hey Paul! Yes, I’m a piss pig from way back. Oink oink motherfucka’. And Janie, I love you, you are the best, and together you two combined embody ——- okay I’ll stop. Haha too much gushing.
ANYWAY haha, what I actually came here to say is, could whoever is interested in engaging more than in comments, here in this community, can we use the message function in this app for that? I’ve tried before, but I couldn’t start my own post, just comment on others’. Which was great! Many of us connected about the holidays. Janie, you started the post right? So it might need to be the account holder.
I’d love to continue conversations with you all. Y’all seem like great folks! 🩵
This emoji must be me being transparent 🫥
Windy
Hi Stephen. My name is Windy. I have a lot to say in the first minute of what Bill Maher has said so far. I’m going to do the whole thing before I share my thoughts (because you must be dying to hear the thoughts of a person you just learned existed 🤗). BRB
Stephen, I don’t know if you want to hear this, but since you’re on Janie and Paul’s comment page you get full benefit of the doubt (also, aren’t you Paul’s brother? Cousin?).
That was difficult for me to stomach. He was going back and forth between two opposing extremes with that, the whole thing, and playing up the punchy words for laughs, just like the “trends” he so readily dismisses. There are nuances. He’s ignoring all nuance, which encourages and enables others to do the same.
There have always, always, always been people who don’t fit inside checkboxes. Tomboys. Effeminate men. etc. those are two terms I heard a lot growing up in my east Texas small town growing up, and I was born in 1980. But I’m talking Ancient Greece and Rome, when people embodied the spirit of one gender and presented as another were considered close to godlike. Nuance. Things aren’t moving too fast. Some people cling hard to simplicity because anything beyond that terrifies them, and that fear comes out as hate. And people lack community anymore so they will cling to whatever form of it they can find, even if it’s harmful and hurtful to everyone. This is “othering”.
Some of what I say is my opinion, it should be said. I’m a social worker in an elementary school, so I think about these things a lot. I appreciate the respectful back-and-forth here and I thank you in advance for letting me contribute.
Have you watched the UK Traitors Red Nose Day Special? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo669LZDS2M
Paul does his best NostraTompkins when he says “Extra, Extra, Oppenheimer sweeps Oscars!” Speaking of the Oscars, my nomination for “Extemporaneous Comment of the Year” goes out to Jimmy Kimmel for saying “Isn’t it past your jail time?” Priceless!
That was indeed very funny! Stephen, I hope you didn’t take what I said about not enjoying the Bill Maher clip personally. I don’t know much about him, only that he did a show called Politically Incorrect when I was in my early twenties. I think it’s great that you’re asking questions! There are incurious people of all ages, and my feeling is that is one of the most unattractive qualities in a person, no desire to learn or grow.
I was SO excited for this episode when I saw the episode title. I got sucked in to ReesaTeesa’s series pretty early on, before all the parts were even uploaded (the suspense killed me!!). I’ve been begging my partner and my mom to watch all of it so we can gossip about it but once they heard how long it was they checked out 😭 So it’s been super exciting to see how viral she’s gone and now to listen to you guys dive into it!! Janie I totally agree with your strategy pitch — book deal, limited series, podcast — give me ALL the ReeseTeesa content!
JANIE. I am so grateful to you for recommending the Reesa Teesa series, and suggesting listening to it like a podcast. I am absolutely fascinated with cults/scammers/scams, and I love you that this is a victim that stood up to tell her story on her terms. I'm in the middle of moving and it's been an absolute nightmare, so having her in my ears telling me this story really became a respite the last few days. Thank you!!